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	<title>Comments on: Holy. Crap.</title>
	<link>http://kindlypogmothoin.com/2007/09/05/holy-crap/</link>
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	<pubDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 12:29:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Alas, a blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Feminism is not your expectation.</title>
		<link>http://kindlypogmothoin.com/2007/09/05/holy-crap/#comment-2053</link>
		<author>Alas, a blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Feminism is not your expectation.</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Oct 2007 16:55:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kindlypogmothoin.com/2007/09/05/holy-crap/#comment-2053</guid>
		<description>[...] is for environmental activists. Feminism is for animal rights activists, and those who prioritize people. Feminism is for anti-racists, but we certainly have our racist moments. Feminism is for the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] is for environmental activists. Feminism is for animal rights activists, and those who prioritize people. Feminism is for anti-racists, but we certainly have our racist moments. Feminism is for the [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: The Anti-Animal Smear Machine (re. Iggy and Ellen) : Elaine Vigneault</title>
		<link>http://kindlypogmothoin.com/2007/09/05/holy-crap/#comment-2004</link>
		<author>The Anti-Animal Smear Machine (re. Iggy and Ellen) : Elaine Vigneault</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2007 04:46:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kindlypogmothoin.com/2007/09/05/holy-crap/#comment-2004</guid>
		<description>[...] to themselves... ...rigid, holier-than-thou types... ...the Animal People descended on Jessica, demanding an explanation for why she bought a dog from a breeder instead of a shelter. There’s echoes of conservatives who want to ban birth control, sex ed, and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] to themselves&#8230; &#8230;rigid, holier-than-thou types&#8230; &#8230;the Animal People descended on Jessica, demanding an explanation for why she bought a dog from a breeder instead of a shelter. There’s echoes of conservatives who want to ban birth control, sex ed, and [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Pandagon :: The soft bed&#8217;s better than the long walk :: October :: 2007</title>
		<link>http://kindlypogmothoin.com/2007/09/05/holy-crap/#comment-1975</link>
		<author>Pandagon :: The soft bed&#8217;s better than the long walk :: October :: 2007</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2007 15:01:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kindlypogmothoin.com/2007/09/05/holy-crap/#comment-1975</guid>
		<description>[...] which is something that came to mind for me frequently when the Animal People descended on Jessica, demanding an explanation for why she bought a dog from a breeder instead of a shelter. There&#8217;s echoes of conservatives who want to ban birth control, sex ed, and abortion but also [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] which is something that came to mind for me frequently when the Animal People descended on Jessica, demanding an explanation for why she bought a dog from a breeder instead of a shelter. There&#8217;s echoes of conservatives who want to ban birth control, sex ed, and abortion but also [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: On Property, Slavery, and Minding My Own Business : Elaine Vigneault</title>
		<link>http://kindlypogmothoin.com/2007/09/05/holy-crap/#comment-1822</link>
		<author>On Property, Slavery, and Minding My Own Business : Elaine Vigneault</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 01:49:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kindlypogmothoin.com/2007/09/05/holy-crap/#comment-1822</guid>
		<description>[...] and here) for purchasing a puppy named Monty from a breeder. My criticisms spurred blog posts on Zuzu's blog, MoxieHart's blog, and now a blog post from Jill on Feministe. Jill's post is seriously long and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] and here) for purchasing a puppy named Monty from a breeder. My criticisms spurred blog posts on Zuzu&#8217;s blog, MoxieHart&#8217;s blog, and now a blog post from Jill on Feministe. Jill&#8217;s post is seriously long and [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: ahunt</title>
		<link>http://kindlypogmothoin.com/2007/09/05/holy-crap/#comment-1645</link>
		<author>ahunt</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2007 00:49:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kindlypogmothoin.com/2007/09/05/holy-crap/#comment-1645</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;but a lot of those are rescued from puppy mills, and so may have serious health problems that are unforeseen).&lt;/i&gt;

YES! And not just health issues, but behaviorial issues...responsible breeders often keep their "problem children" as neutered pets...but they certainly do not send those problems downrange.

Also, most responsible breeders require that dogs be returned to them rather than being placed with new adopters, and ask to be notified of ANY issues that appear down the line. 

Elaine, please know that I do not equate puppy mills with responsible breeders...

Again, the infamous Great Pyr rescue of 2006 traced all nine of the dumped Pyrs to a mill out of Indiana. Word is that the mill is doing "shelties" now. SIGH

Shelter dogs are indeed a crapshoot...never mind that we have a great working relationship with our area shelter. Bear in mind, the "unadoptables" never even make the cut...and that the shelter evaluation can never account for all the possible problems that can arise. Seemingly healthy animals may indeed have compromised immune systems, with problems showing up further down the line than anyone could have predicted. Seemingly calm animals may have hidden, totally weird quirks that manifest only in particular circumstances. (We once disconnected our doorbells, because one terrier? type, renamed Mr Piddles, would pee on the floor every time the doorbell rang. Needless to say, Pid remained with us for his long, bossy life.) And aggression may be buried deep, only to rise to the surface as adopted animals become more sure of their place in the household. 

I'm a vocal advocate of shelter dogs, but they can and do come with issues. One approach is the Fostering Families program, families who work to reclaim adoptable mutts with issues before the shelter places them up for adoption.

And I'm rambling again...off to work a commission.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>but a lot of those are rescued from puppy mills, and so may have serious health problems that are unforeseen).</i></p>
<p>YES! And not just health issues, but behaviorial issues&#8230;responsible breeders often keep their &#8220;problem children&#8221; as neutered pets&#8230;but they certainly do not send those problems downrange.</p>
<p>Also, most responsible breeders require that dogs be returned to them rather than being placed with new adopters, and ask to be notified of ANY issues that appear down the line. </p>
<p>Elaine, please know that I do not equate puppy mills with responsible breeders&#8230;</p>
<p>Again, the infamous Great Pyr rescue of 2006 traced all nine of the dumped Pyrs to a mill out of Indiana. Word is that the mill is doing &#8220;shelties&#8221; now. SIGH</p>
<p>Shelter dogs are indeed a crapshoot&#8230;never mind that we have a great working relationship with our area shelter. Bear in mind, the &#8220;unadoptables&#8221; never even make the cut&#8230;and that the shelter evaluation can never account for all the possible problems that can arise. Seemingly healthy animals may indeed have compromised immune systems, with problems showing up further down the line than anyone could have predicted. Seemingly calm animals may have hidden, totally weird quirks that manifest only in particular circumstances. (We once disconnected our doorbells, because one terrier? type, renamed Mr Piddles, would pee on the floor every time the doorbell rang. Needless to say, Pid remained with us for his long, bossy life.) And aggression may be buried deep, only to rise to the surface as adopted animals become more sure of their place in the household. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m a vocal advocate of shelter dogs, but they can and do come with issues. One approach is the Fostering Families program, families who work to reclaim adoptable mutts with issues before the shelter places them up for adoption.</p>
<p>And I&#8217;m rambling again&#8230;off to work a commission.</p>
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		<title>By: Zuzu</title>
		<link>http://kindlypogmothoin.com/2007/09/05/holy-crap/#comment-1632</link>
		<author>Zuzu</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Sep 2007 22:54:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kindlypogmothoin.com/2007/09/05/holy-crap/#comment-1632</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;People like Jessica and Zuzu are afraid of adult, shelter dogs, because think shelter dogs are a “crapshoot” as if breeder puppies aren’t.&lt;/i&gt;

Oh, fuck you sideways, Elaine.  Don't lie about me on my own blog.  

I got my goddamn dog as an adult from a shelter, I got my previous dog as an adult from a shelter, and my family got adult dogs from shelters except for the two puppies we raised for the Seeing Eye.

I've also rescued and fostered adult dogs who'd been abandoned in the park.  I've been bitten seriously twice, both times by dogs who'd never displayed any previous tendencies toward aggression.  

And based on that, I know that shelter dogs can be a crapshoot.  You can't be guaranteed that any particular dog's issues will all be known, nor will you be able to tell whether they have serious health issues (I know you keep extolling the purebreds in shelters, but a lot of those are rescued from puppy mills, and so may have serious health problems that are unforeseen).  If it's important to you that a dog is a known quantity, a shelter is probably not the way to go. 

My previous dog was one of the aggressive ones, and I no longer have her because she tried to tear my face off.  Junebug also came from a shelter, and has a whole different set of issues, but none that involves aggression towards me.  

So take your self-righteousness and moral scolding and fuck off.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>People like Jessica and Zuzu are afraid of adult, shelter dogs, because think shelter dogs are a “crapshoot” as if breeder puppies aren’t.</i></p>
<p>Oh, fuck you sideways, Elaine.  Don&#8217;t lie about me on my own blog.  </p>
<p>I got my goddamn dog as an adult from a shelter, I got my previous dog as an adult from a shelter, and my family got adult dogs from shelters except for the two puppies we raised for the Seeing Eye.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve also rescued and fostered adult dogs who&#8217;d been abandoned in the park.  I&#8217;ve been bitten seriously twice, both times by dogs who&#8217;d never displayed any previous tendencies toward aggression.  </p>
<p>And based on that, I know that shelter dogs can be a crapshoot.  You can&#8217;t be guaranteed that any particular dog&#8217;s issues will all be known, nor will you be able to tell whether they have serious health issues (I know you keep extolling the purebreds in shelters, but a lot of those are rescued from puppy mills, and so may have serious health problems that are unforeseen).  If it&#8217;s important to you that a dog is a known quantity, a shelter is probably not the way to go. </p>
<p>My previous dog was one of the aggressive ones, and I no longer have her because she tried to tear my face off.  Junebug also came from a shelter, and has a whole different set of issues, but none that involves aggression towards me.  </p>
<p>So take your self-righteousness and moral scolding and fuck off.</p>
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		<title>By: Elaine Vigneault</title>
		<link>http://kindlypogmothoin.com/2007/09/05/holy-crap/#comment-1630</link>
		<author>Elaine Vigneault</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Sep 2007 21:00:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kindlypogmothoin.com/2007/09/05/holy-crap/#comment-1630</guid>
		<description>Statistically, it's only about 7% of the pet owner population who is irresponsible. That small amount does an incredible amount of damage. A breeder who sells an unaltered dog to an irresponsible person just seven times out of a hundred is a breeder who is contributing to the problem. And well, all breeders, no matter how responsible, make mistakes like that. I know of NO breeders who only sell neutered dogs. If they did, well, my opinions would change slightly. I'd still think it was wrong, but I wouldn't think they're contributing to the overpopulation problem nearly quite as much. But no, they sell puppies. That's their business. People want puppies, not adolescent dogs or adult dogs. People like Jessica and Zuzu are afraid of adult, shelter dogs, because think shelter dogs are a "crapshoot" as if breeder puppies aren't.

Moreover, I regularly volunteer with animal rescue organizations. I spent two weeks sleeping in a sleeping bag in an abandoned building in New Orleans helping with cat rescue. So don't give me any of that shit about how I'm from the big city and don't have a clue. You don't know me, my past, or anything about my rescue efforts. So just STFU about that and stop getting personal. Stop attacking the person, start attacking the argument.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Statistically, it&#8217;s only about 7% of the pet owner population who is irresponsible. That small amount does an incredible amount of damage. A breeder who sells an unaltered dog to an irresponsible person just seven times out of a hundred is a breeder who is contributing to the problem. And well, all breeders, no matter how responsible, make mistakes like that. I know of NO breeders who only sell neutered dogs. If they did, well, my opinions would change slightly. I&#8217;d still think it was wrong, but I wouldn&#8217;t think they&#8217;re contributing to the overpopulation problem nearly quite as much. But no, they sell puppies. That&#8217;s their business. People want puppies, not adolescent dogs or adult dogs. People like Jessica and Zuzu are afraid of adult, shelter dogs, because think shelter dogs are a &#8220;crapshoot&#8221; as if breeder puppies aren&#8217;t.</p>
<p>Moreover, I regularly volunteer with animal rescue organizations. I spent two weeks sleeping in a sleeping bag in an abandoned building in New Orleans helping with cat rescue. So don&#8217;t give me any of that shit about how I&#8217;m from the big city and don&#8217;t have a clue. You don&#8217;t know me, my past, or anything about my rescue efforts. So just STFU about that and stop getting personal. Stop attacking the person, start attacking the argument.</p>
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		<title>By: ahunt</title>
		<link>http://kindlypogmothoin.com/2007/09/05/holy-crap/#comment-1622</link>
		<author>ahunt</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Sep 2007 05:31:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kindlypogmothoin.com/2007/09/05/holy-crap/#comment-1622</guid>
		<description>Thank the young'uns, Zu.  These days, we're relying on them more and more.

And thank you. For the space to vent. I won't make a habit of it...maybe just when we lose a coupla three or six hard cases in a bad streak?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank the young&#8217;uns, Zu.  These days, we&#8217;re relying on them more and more.</p>
<p>And thank you. For the space to vent. I won&#8217;t make a habit of it&#8230;maybe just when we lose a coupla three or six hard cases in a bad streak?</p>
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		<title>By: Zuzu</title>
		<link>http://kindlypogmothoin.com/2007/09/05/holy-crap/#comment-1621</link>
		<author>Zuzu</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Sep 2007 03:58:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kindlypogmothoin.com/2007/09/05/holy-crap/#comment-1621</guid>
		<description>Oh, no.  Do it here.

I'm amazed you can still keep doing what you do.  You're doing important work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, no.  Do it here.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m amazed you can still keep doing what you do.  You&#8217;re doing important work.</p>
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		<title>By: ahunt</title>
		<link>http://kindlypogmothoin.com/2007/09/05/holy-crap/#comment-1617</link>
		<author>ahunt</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Sep 2007 01:53:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kindlypogmothoin.com/2007/09/05/holy-crap/#comment-1617</guid>
		<description>Going back and forth here, and I just realized that I'd taken over the discussion...

I'm so sorry. I was venting and folks should know that things are so much better than they were two decades ago (except for perhaps, for beagles, the most abused breed of all)...

We get the heartbreak monthly, sometimes weekly, but there was a time when we got it almost daily. Underground networks struggled for years...now we have fine help. Official organizations have made the world a better place for domesticated critters, taken some heavy weight off our backs, provided financial/health care resources and have just generally kept us sane. 

And there is so much good. We get annual Xmas cards signed with muddy paw prints from rescues done over a decade ago. And sweet notes from people thanking us for caring for their lost pets. There is no better feeling than that which comes from restoring a lost mutt to a frantic, devastated family living twenty+ miles away. Or the note from a middle-aged widower, who rescued our rescue, and thanked us for easing his heartache with the unprincipled little devil we called "the Gypsy"...took us nine months to get her. (She survived on the plentiful road kill and the food we put out for her)

I just get tired sometimes, and need to bitch. I shouldn't do it here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Going back and forth here, and I just realized that I&#8217;d taken over the discussion&#8230;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m so sorry. I was venting and folks should know that things are so much better than they were two decades ago (except for perhaps, for beagles, the most abused breed of all)&#8230;</p>
<p>We get the heartbreak monthly, sometimes weekly, but there was a time when we got it almost daily. Underground networks struggled for years&#8230;now we have fine help. Official organizations have made the world a better place for domesticated critters, taken some heavy weight off our backs, provided financial/health care resources and have just generally kept us sane. </p>
<p>And there is so much good. We get annual Xmas cards signed with muddy paw prints from rescues done over a decade ago. And sweet notes from people thanking us for caring for their lost pets. There is no better feeling than that which comes from restoring a lost mutt to a frantic, devastated family living twenty+ miles away. Or the note from a middle-aged widower, who rescued our rescue, and thanked us for easing his heartache with the unprincipled little devil we called &#8220;the Gypsy&#8221;&#8230;took us nine months to get her. (She survived on the plentiful road kill and the food we put out for her)</p>
<p>I just get tired sometimes, and need to bitch. I shouldn&#8217;t do it here.</p>
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